Evan hrrms, "Think this is allof us?"
Message 111 of 115 on *Smith-Staff (#4495):
Date:     Thu Mar  2 12:57:46 2000 CST
From:     Cera (#8536)
To:       *Smith-Staff (#4495)
Subject:  Agenda for Meeting

Tonight at the meeting these are several of the different agendas that need to be covered so we can move onward. They are:

1. Promotion Policy
     a. Applicant
      b.Apprentice
     c.Senior Apprentice
     d. Journeyman
     e.Master

Note:  We need to come to a general view on how each of these areas are viewed within the craft by all members.

2. CrossCrafting and Requirements
     a.Titles
     b.Level of Smith Journeyman and above entering other crafts
     c.Should others entering our craft be positioned as 'Apprentices'

Note: These are not all issues...but certain ones that have come to head recently in mailers. If you haven't already read the mailers. Please do so before attending meeting.

3. Policy on Staff
     a.Craft members becoming staff
     b.Activity of said Staff
     c.Responce of Staff towards actions of members of craft
     d.Lack of responce and should craft members be allowed benifit of doubt due to lack of responce.

Note: Upon reading requirements of leadership on Ista Weyr Council ..they have a policy of rotating C1 and C2. Please read 'help ista weyr council'

4. Specialty Areas
     a.Having staff/craft members in charge of specialty areas and lesson plans
     b.Setting up SAPR for specialty areas on classes
     c. Individuals to be in charge of areas if decided to go ahead
     d.Mailers with Areas and ownership

5. The removal of 'Craft' from any other area title other than SmithCraft itself.
    a. IC appropriatness of titles for Areas

6.GemCrafting

Note: Although the subject of GemCrafting will be covered by other topics a special note has been added to clarify the subject of 'GemCrafting' its self in a singular manner due to recent difficulties with trying to crosscraft with MinerCraft. A possiblity has been raised within and outside the SmithCraft to change the term GemCrafting to a different specialty area since this is/and was causing arguments between crafts. Hopefull SmithCraft can come to a unilateral decision on how we all view this matter.
--------------------------
@read 112 on *sstf
Rand goes off-duty to avoid being paged or the spam of the birthplace.
Darman steps away for a moment to scrawl out a message to someone.
Evan drops the OOC Dragon-lantern
Darman returns, sending a firelizard off to deliver the message.
Darman says, "Alright.  We can proceed if you wish"
Rand nods,"Shall we...I'd like to be here as much as possible."
Cera says, "Evan would you like to start or shall I?"
Evan nodles.  "Cera, I think you had the list... you want to get us rolling?"
Cera says, "Okay...I have a bunch of things that need to be addressed and a few ground rules that I also would like to lay down."

Cera says, "If you at the end of my little speech you object to it then speak now or forever hold you peace."
Darman says, "Speak then you mean"
Cera says, "this place and the reason for this meeting is to work out our difference and we have many. ..I am getting there darman..hang on I type slow"
Cera says, "and I do'nt feel to hot :P"
Cera says, "So...no name calling back stabbing kind things going on...I would like to see a vote at the end of each topic so that a majority agreemenet decides. Also the logs will be posted and any staff member that leaves or could'nt attend will have the opporunity to vote within the next four days before policy is implimented."
Cera says, "My spelling rots too btw."
requirement.
Cera says, "There are personal issues that have been brought into play here. I would like to say that if they can't be worked out...dropped ect. Take it to Evan directly and have a mediation or to the wiz staff we have almost destroyed the smithcraft with bickering"
Evan Hrrms to Cera, "I'd like to suggest that we need a 2/3 majority for changes?  Something that's btw 1/2 and 2/3 gets brought back up in a week after we discuss it?
Evan chuckles, "And Keep in mind that If it's a personal problem with me, feel free to bring it to me.  I won't be offended.
Cera says, "Yep that works :) I would of said more than half my math bites so it works"
Cera says, "any comements more before we begin?"
Paric smiles, "I agree with the two-thirds vote for approval of any motions..."
Agrajag nods and will agree with that
Cera says, "also please print read or look at #111 on smith staff mailer it is a basic agenda of topics..."
describe it.  Like mine is Metalcraft, and I did a knife.
Cera says, "Anyone can add more..but I felt we needed a direction to go in "
Cera says, "Darman? Rand? Bryon? in agreement? this isn't one of those we idle and watch things"
Darman says, "I'm fine with it thanx"
Darman says, "ANd I'm not idle either"
Cera laughs, "At least you aren't I was thinking about it and getting food...heh heh."
Bryon nods, "i agree.."
Cera thinks, "Oooh and look..bunch of guys and one chick what do you think the rest of the moo is a gona think?"
Agrajag says, "That we need more female Smiths :)"
Cera laughs, "Nah I like being a loner!! "
Cera says, "anyway...on to the stuff..Promotion policy...starting with applicant...most everyone should have a copy of the initial rough draft...lets pick it apart and make it work."
Rand is trying to pay attention...
Darman says, "How would you define a "description appropriate for an apprentice"?"
Evan nods, "I mentioned this to Cera already, but I don't think we need Both the 4-hour and the 1-week.  THink just the 4-hour activity is sufficient?
Agrajag says, "Which rough draft?"
Smith has been removed from your channel list.
Cera says, "jag did I miss you? possible...hmmm...i will send"
Evan nods to Darman, "Something that describes a character who could be a prospective apprentice.  Probably slightly better than the bare minimum that suffices to get through #11?
Bryon has no clue what is being talked about
Darman says, "Alright"
Evan says, "Did you get the proposed new requirements for promotion?"
Darman says, "I'd say one week online and skip the 4 hours activity.  Chances are they'll know more in a week than an hour"
Cera says, "bryon..the word draft of the apprentice promotion"
Cera says, "did I send it if not i can again"
Evan frowns to Darm, "But do we want to make new alts wait a week?
Darman says, "Or we can do an If statement of sorts.  One week or 7 hours whichever is longer"
Darman says, "Hmmm true.  But do we want to get people who don't know anything about M**ing in there right away?"
Agrajag wonders if we can wait a sec for me and Bryon to get this proposal so we can follow the conversation
Evan hrrms, "Why seven?  Four seems plenty to me.
Evan nods to AGra, "of course.
Cera nods, "I just sent them ..word docs.jag I can change to text if you need."
Darman says, "7 is 1 hour a day for a week"
Bryon hmms to Cera, "The one I had isn't the same as the one you just sent
Cera says, "Darman this is only an applicant and they need to go through an interview first"
Agrajag grins at Cera, please send a text.. word perfect doesn't seem able to understand that file
Cera says, "Okay jag hang on"
Agrajag doesn't know when the best point to bring this up would be, but at some point can we talk about changing the rank of the non-applicants so that we can use rlist to see which people are awaiting interviews
Cera says, "I will add that to the list."
Cera says, "Jag it is being sent "
Agrajag grins, "Thanks, on both accounts"
Cera says, "No worries...I tried to catch everyone as best I could."
Cera says, "As we start to look at this...Now..a. Do we kill a weeks requirement and have only four hours online...or b. Kill a weeks requirement and use 7 hours online c. Have it set for a log on of a week at least."
Agrajag says, "Ok.. what are the requirements for someone to be made into an applicant?  Not into an apprentice, but into an applicant.  (btw, I think 10 is to young)"
Evan hrrms to AGrajag, "That isn't done yet?"
Bryon shakes his head, "I think we should have 7 hours total time on the moo...
Agrajag blinks at Evan and doesn't understand what you mean
Bryon says, "no week or time.. just how much time spent on moo"
Cera says, "Applicant is the initial stage upon completion they can ask for an interview."
Evan hrrms to agra, "didn't know they were applicants.  Just promote them to resident/whatever.
Cera says, "I suggested twelve...evan eight and the median was ten...heh heh"
Agrajag nods to Evan and understands now
Evan blinks, "10 whats?"
Agrajag says to Evan, "10 turns to be an apprentice"
Cera says, "In the middle for the age class"
Evan ahhs to AGrajag, "I'd say 8-10
Cera chuckles
Cera says, "any other comments about the age..and btw we will vote towards the end of each section"
Evan says, "Agra:  No requirements to become an applicant. but if you remain an applicant for 1wk+ you should go back to traveler?"
Agrajag says, "I think we should use the activity and not OOC age of the char.  Someone can be two weeks old, but online a total of 5 minutes.. whereas someone can RP for one day and become quite proficient with the MOO in that time (assuming they're not an alt)"
Evan nods to agrajag, "Definately."
Cera says, "I would give them 45 days as applicant then traveler status again"
Paric smiles and shakes his head, "Now I know that Evan would have had the maturity and responsibility to handle being an appy at age 8, but I don't believe the rest of the population of Pern would."  He grins.
Darman says, "I say the applicant must be at least 22.5 :) j/k"
Agrajag nods to Evan and thinks we should have a maximum time for being an applicant
Rand has to idle.
Evan thwapps Paric, "the 8 comes from stuff in The harperHall trillogy.
Paric grins, "Ah...but what does harpering have to do with Smithcraft!"
Evan phlbbts to paric, "General apprentice age would be consistant across crafts.
Darman nods.  "The Harpers can go blow it out their whistles :)  We're working men and women!"
Cera lol
emote laughs.
Paric laughs.
Evan runs to grab some water. brb.
Cera says, "Okay.."
Paric chuckles and nods, "Well..that is off the subject Darman.  Back to the matter at hand..."
Agrajag thinks that requirement 6 on the list is good, with the one exception that they don't have to know the noteditor beforehand.. that's something that can be learned once they're in the Craft.  I also think the lesson is a good idea, but shouldn't be implemented until we can prove to ourselves that we will regularly teach the class by doing it
Paric nods.
Cera nods
Darman nods
emote smiles and nods, "I don't have a problem with doing either."
Paric smiles and nods, "I don't have a problem with doing either."
Evan says, "back.""
Cera says, "evan comment #6"
Agrajag also suggests an 'interview manual' or guide that outlines the thing that must be covered and the requirements that we need to remember to make sure are met
Evan agrees w/ agra on no @noteditor being necessarry.
Cera says, "well all do :)"
Cera says, "well sorta heh heh"
Evan says, "as well as the no-lesson."
Cera says, "anyway...lets not get ahead of this great suggestion jag but it is alot of work a nd quota to do."
Darman says, "Actually I am for the lesson.  Here's why"
Evan chuckles to AGra, "you volunteering to write it?"
Darman says, "We wish to modify the Snr. Appy projects right?  Including how to teach a class.  THAT should be the class they teach"
Cera grins "Darman has a point..heh heh."
Darman says, "And if there is no applicants available, they can do something simple such as ic/ooc class or desc class"
Darman says, "but that is jumping ahead"
Cera laughs
Cera says, "Okay...so we have covered applicant...lets go back down the list..."
Agrajag says, "Are we going to vote?  Any more comments on applicant?"
Cera says, "one....one week wait? yay or nay?"
Agrajag suddenly remembers something.. we need to sort out which of those requirements (like age) need to be met inorder for us to make someone an applicant
Agrajag says, "nay"
Bryon says, "nay"
Cera says, "we are getting there jag one thing at a time"
emote smiles, "I would like at least a one week stay after creation of the character..."
Paric smiles, "I would like at least a one week stay after creation of the character..."
Agrajag says, "What do you mean by 'stay' ?"
Cera says, "Nay :P"
Darman says, "Yay for the sheer hell of it.  I think one week is a good number to get around the moo and figure things out"
Paric smiles, "That they have been mooing with the character for one week...I don't want to interview anybody if they are just going to end up dumping them."
Bryon thinks, "I think they should have an activity of at least 7 hours.." 
Cera says, "Evan? we haven't gotten to that bry"
Agrajag hmms at Paric.. "How does requiring 4 hours activity (which is still a lot) in order to become an applicant.. but then they have to wait until their char is at least a week old in order to be interviewed?"
Cera says, "No no no...they are an applicant upon asking..."
Paric shakes his head, "As I understand #1, it is that the applicant must be at least online for one week prior to being interviewed as an apprentice...not as an applicant."
Cera says, "It is getting an interview after four hours or week log on that is being asked. :P"
Agrajag says to Cera, "I've been asking about that and no one has responded.."
Cera says, "I didn't see :P"
Agrajag was saying that I think some of the requirements we listed should be met /before/ they're made an applicant.. and we should decide which before we vote
Cera says, "Either they are logged on for four hours at least or been created for one week before asking to be an apprentice though we can increase the time if that is who we all seem to be leaning to seven hours before apprentice interview"
Agrajag says, "As an example.. a 3 Turn applicant that has to wait around 7 Turns.. that just won't work"
Cera laughs, "True...though in general I think we can use our judgment abou that...I don't think I would make a 3 turn old an applicant and not out of spite."
Agrajag thinks 7 hours is /way/ to long for people who aren't planning on living on the MOO like the rest of us
Darman says, "7 hours is perfect"
Darman says, "1 hour a day for a week.  30 minutes a day for 2 weeks.  Hard not to be able to come up with that"
Paric smiles, "I would rather have four hours...I don't think the player needs to maintain the hours that a leader has to do...and I am only interested in that they spend time online RP and get used to RPing in the Smithhall...craft...etc."
Agrajag wonders if he's the only one who thinks 7 hours is to much.. I fear it'll push possible applicants away from us
Cera says, "I don't want to put some major stumbliing blocks in peoples paths....due to the reap policy on travelers people are quick to get anywhere. If I had followed a certain policy Dawine never would of made applicant. She didn't know how to moo at all and I always tell people if the decide to go somewhere else to let staff know and the will be removed..."
Paric smiles, "I think 4 hours in a week is fine..."
Paric smiles, "Though I'm inclined to change 2 to read ...prior to an apprentice interview."
Cera says, "To take time look around the hall rp with people and decide if this is what you want to do. Develope a character history and work on that desc and come talk to me in a couple days when you are more comfortable. I am willing to help with anything in the mean time to make it easier"
Agrajag says to Paric, "I've been asking repeatedly for a clarification of what is before interview and what is before being an applicant.."
Cera says, "Nothing as far as i am concerned before the applicant ...sne a note to sstf and whoever is on at the time can add 'em...then show 'em where to read on the stuff and leave them alone and work out the interview for apprentice"
Paric smiles and nods, "And I'm looking at what is listed on the page.  #1 is not an issue as it states before interview.  The applicant isn't interviewed.  #2, I believe, should also be before the interview, they can acrue the hours prior to being an applicant or during."
Cera says, "correct"
Agrajag says to Cera, "except for number 3.."
Paric smiles, "I'd say the same of #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, and#8.
Cera chuckles "I think Paric just addressed that one."
Agrajag isn't sure what exactly Paric meant by 'saying the same'
Paric smiles, "In the introductory paragraph to applicant it states, "...applicants are required to prepare by completing several requirements..."  I think that infers prior to being interviewed for apprentice.
Darman says, "I agree"
Evan has connected.
Evan yawns sleepily, as he streatches and wakes.
Cera says, "You there ev?"
Evan sorries to all, "My sound card is fscked up.
Evan had to reboot. "It takes forever to fsck 26+G of HD.
Evan wonders what he missed?
Agrajag will probablly sound stupid saying this.. but could people please be less ambiguous?  I have no idea what Darman just agreed with, and I have no idea what Paric meant about 3-8
Agrajag says to Evan, "we have no idea how much you missed.. you never disconnected"
Paric smiles, "This would mean that we could have a four turn old character join as an applicant, not that I'd do it, and they would have to complete all the requirements prior to getting an interview...including the age one. "
Bryonsighs, "Goodnight all..."
Bryon goes home.
Cera chuckles, "Poor thing and it was me and that was me last week with that c**ppy compaq
Cera says, "Night bry feel better :P"
Evan says, "Oh great.  We were just discussing your idea for applicants AGra."
given an interview for apprentice."
Paric smiles, "Okay...simply, all the requirements should be completed prior to being given an interview for apprentice."
Evan hrrms, "all which ones? Did we throw out the char-a-week-old one?
Agrajag nods to Paric.. I agree with what you just said, except I think they should meet the age requirement /before/ they can become an applicant
emote huhs?
Paric huhs?
Cera says, "Okay...works."
Cera says, "Ie this..."
Evan says, "The "it must be a week from first connect until becoming apprentice""
Paric smiles, "I don't have a problem with that."
Paric nods.
Agrajag sighs softly and asks again for people to be less ambigious.. just a slight amount of lag and this becomes /very/ confusing
Cera says, "To become an applicant one must be between at that age of blah blah...and a note letter sent to sstf. Then we chang the requirment to 7 hours or four hours?"
Paric smiles, "I prefer 4 hours..."
Evan would vote for 4, but is amiable with anything up to 7.  Veheminately against anything over 7
Paric chuckles.
Evan says, "7hr/wk is leader activity...  think that 4 hours total is plenty."
Agrajag feels that much more than 4 hours is pushing it
Cera says, "Okay how many for four?"
Agrajag votes for 4
Paric votes 4
Evan is for 4
Cera says, "is for 4"
Darman abstains
Darman  :)
Cera says, "lol"
Cera says, "okay four it is?"
Evan nods to cera.
Agrajag nods.. four votes is 2/3, and we had four votes for 4 :)
Cera says, "Hmm anyway...if I got this right we can one...keep two...and move on. Taking age requirement prior to applicant."
Paric chuckles, "Cera lost her connection...give her a sec...
Cera has disconnected.
Cera falls asleep.
Agrajag votes for 3 before becoming applicant, 4, 5, 6 minus noteditor, and 7, but not 8
Paric chuckles, "And that was rejected #1 and approved #2."
Cera has connected.
Cera wakes up.
Cera waves
Agrajag votes for 3 before becoming applicant, 4, 5, 6 minus noteditor, and 7, but not 8 (repose for the Queen of the Smiths)
Cera laughs, "works."
Evan agress w/ AGra.
Cera says, "ack I wanted the intro class to smithcraft :("
Paric smiles, "I vote aye for all and will agree with excluding the noteditor requirement."
Agrajag says to Cera, "I agree with the intro class, but don't think it should be required until the staff proves to itself that it will teach the class regularly"
Evan hrrms, "Why is the intro class important?"
Cera says, "true but can't we keep it around and though put it to the side?"
Cera says, "Call it advertising Evan if anything :P"
Agrajag says, "How about we include it but with a side note of (Optional, but to be required in the future)"
Cera nods and would agree to that
Evan hrrms, "Why don't we do everything else, and see about the class in a month or so when we'll have figgred out teaching?
Paric smiles, "How about that we ...as Jag stated...perhaps include it in about 4-6 months as we get it all working."
Cera says, "I think jag has covered it nicely without booting it?"
Cera says, "and the time isn't a concern"
Evan nods, "Sounds good to me."
Cera says, "How is the finall paragraph?"
Cera says, "ie below 8"
Evan hrm?s, "What about it?  Thought it was just general foo for the document.
Agrajag thinks 2 weeks sounds better, but I think something should be included so that an applicant gets booted in case the staff is to busy
Cera says, "read the 60 day thing or booted back to traveler :))"
Cera says, "Nah two weeks I feel is to restrictive but fourty five would made me happy "
Paric chuckles, "Well...I have no problem with it.  I like to give them the time...two months is easier for me to remember..."
Cera says, "And can't we have a our own reap type system? sory big one I know..."
Evan wonders, "How about a month RL?
Paricchuckles, "Hmmmm...2 weeks... 4 weeks... 6 weeks and 8 weeks..."
Cera says, "fine :P whatever you folks want on this one..I just want to get rid of the drift wood "
Paric laughs, "Well..it looks like there is wide agreement on this one...heheh."
Evan nods, "I don't think it should be longer than 4.  Others?"
Agrajag has a suggestion.. 1 month, but no staff member can run our mini-reap unless they have actively tried to interview those people within the last month
Paric chuckles, "Actually...that would be okay with me...resolves the #3 issue too."
Cera smiles and will agree..."Hmm and I say that all the reap system does..is just pull up a list of names and has to wait a week before full reap."
Agrajag would think it would be just comparing the people with the applicant title to the times shown on *smithstaff for them joining
Cera says, "so actually they end up totall five weeks grace period before drop"
Evan thinks we should just do it manually... why bother coding something like that up?
Paric grins, "I think that it is too... farmerish...I like the idea of hammering them."
Cera doesn't have a clue how it will actually work you programmer types have that joy
Evan lol!s to paric
Agrajag idles for a few min
Paric smiles, "It sounds like that everyone is fine with four weeks....I'd have to state..that if the player completed all the requirements, then they shouldn't be hammered.  It is if they don't complete them."
Evan nods to Paric, "Makes sense here."
Cera says, "Okay.. why code? cause this way it saves on the amount of work and there is alot..."
Darman is lost now
Evan doesn't think we'll have all that many not making apy.
Cera says, "we have a few ev that hang on"
Paric chuckles, "Well...it appears that the votes have been cast for items #3-8 plus the requirement for four weeks to complete the requirements for getting an interview...does that help Darman."
Darman nods.  "That helps."
Paric smiles, "I think that we are waiting for your votes on #3-8..."
Cera is slowing down and asks that Paric work on this for her :)
Darman says, "Aye on all"
Paric smiles, "Hmmm...on #6, the motion excludes the noteditor...
Darman says, "Still aye for all"
Paric smiles, "Okay...then I take it that items #2-8 have been approved...and #1 is rejected...as well the final paragraph is approved with the 4 weeks to complete reuirements requirement.
Agrajag says, "Doesn't #8 have some addons?"
emote smiles, "Okay...Apprentice...any comments?"
Paric smiles, "Okay...Apprentice...any comments?"
Cera says, "Yes and they are noted"
Rand has disconnected.
Rand falls asleep.
Paric smiles, "yes...I believe that it was to postpone implementation of the intro class for at least one month..."
Agrajag says, "Ok.. for appy, I think 2 should be modified to be the introductory class that includes a brief description of all the specialties.. it can be changed when we add the intro class to the applicant process"
Paric grins, "Or longer...and it would be optional until that point."
Darman says, "I believe the flamethrower class should be a senior appy class.  Simply for the age and maturity factor"
Darman says, "Not to teach, but to take rather"
Evan nods to AGrajag, "That's fine.  also: don't require GC... we don't have threadfall more than bi-monthly.
Agrajag says to Darman, "apprentices should be expected to help in flamer crews"
Evan would move the bigTp to Sr-App.
Darman agrees with Evan on both accounts (GC and BigTP)
Paric smiles, "Sen has agreed to have thread fall more often...ie shortly after flamer lessons...so groundcrew is possible more often."
Paric smiles, "The idea of having the appys involved in groundcrews is to stimulate RP outside the craft...etc."
Agrajag says, "GC?"
Evan says, "GC=ground crew"
Agrajag says, "ah.. I kept thinking gemcraft :P"
The housekeeper arrives to cart Rand off to bed.
Evan says, "Paric: I'm not saying they _can't_ just dont require it for Sr. appy?"
Agrajag says, "How about we require the flamer class for appies, and ICly require all sr appies to participate in ground crews, although they only have to RP out one to be promoted"
Cera: Has anyone in the craft in recent history gone out and fought thread in a ground crew?"
Darman says, "I can't remember there being thread.  Perhaps I missed it"
Agrajag says to Cera, "I don't think anyone on the entire MOO has rped threadfall within recent history.. or at least not with ground crews"
Paric chuckles, "It has been a while...I've participated in two...but that was over a year ago."
Evan nods, "I havn't seen Thread in 6mo-1yr.  Definately not w/ groundcrews.
Paric smiles, "I think that is what Cera is getting at.  I think that she wants to encourage RP Moo wide...not just within the craft."
emote smiles, "Basically working with the weyrs and holds, etc.  "
Paric smiles, "Basically working with the weyrs and holds, etc.  "
Darman says, "That'd be nice"
Agrajag nods
Paric smiles, "It would show the holds that flamers and ground crews are used and would give an example to the other holds on how to use a flamers and work on a ground crew..."
Evan nods, "But w/ the scarcity I just don't want to see it required.
Paric smiles, "It would also give the metal crafters rp in fixing flamers, etc.  as people use the equipment more ofthen..."
Agrajag doesn't want to sound pushy, but can we kinda move this along?  I'm getting tired
Paric laughs.  "I agree..."
Paric smiles, "Okay...for items #1, 2, 3, and 4.  Your votes?"
Evan says, "yes for all but attend GC session."
Agrajag says, "1 yes, 2 yes with the provision I stated earlier, 3 and 4 yes"
Paric smiles, "Cera has stated aye for all requirements, #1-#8."
Evan says, "also for #5."
Agrajag isn't sure he likes the idea of finding a mentore /before/ chosing a specialty
Evan nods, "against 7 an d8
Darman says, "I agree on all but the mentor and TP part.  A mentor should be found as a Snr APpy when you choose a speciality.  TPs should come in the Snr APpy part when RPing has been solidified and such."
Paric smiles, "Okay...Jag  the provision was the intro class as a requirement of #2."
Agrajag nods
Paric smiles, "Sorry taking so long...recording votes...okay...and for #5, 6, 7, 8?"
Agrajag says, "5 without the groundcrews, 6 ok, not sure about 7 and 8"
Paric smiles, "I vote in favor of all requirements...as well as the provision by Jag for #2.  I'm in favor of the the GC. "
Evan says, "yes for 5 and 6 no for 7,8"
Evan says, "wait... what #8?"
Evan says, "make that for 5, not 6,7"
Evan hasta afk for a min... will brb.
Paric huhs, "Okay...and for #8?  Oh.. you want to move that to Senior Appy..."
Darman says, "I'm in agreement with Evan"
Agrajag says to Paric, "7 and 8"
Paric smiles, "Hmmm...move 7-8 to senior appy?"
Paric frowns, "Easier to do this is a board room."
Agrajag nods
Darman says, "I guess what if the thread thing falls through?  Should there be a provision to counter that?"
Agrajag agrees with you there Paric
Cera and Paric not in favor...so it looks like we move it to Senior Appy."
Paric nods, "Okay...I'm taking that Darman, Evan and Jag wish to have #7-8 moved to SA, Cera and Paric not in favor...so it looks like we move it to Senior Appy."
Evan says, "back."
Evan still wonders what #8?
Evan's list dies at #7?
Agrajag actually can go either way on 8, but I think you should have a specialty before you get a mentor
Paric smiles, "Okay...it is the TP requirement...."
Agrajag says, ".  The character must participate in a TP involving more than one craft, weyr o"
Agrajag says, "or hold."
Evan says, "TP is #7 for me."
Paric smiles, "#7 is mentor..."
Evan says, "I'm against mentor and TP.  Move them to SrA->jman.  whatever #s you have."
Paric smiles and nods, "Okay...then as no on mentor and move TP."
Agrajag votes move mentor and doesn't vote on TP
Paric Okay...then let me summarize... yes on #1,#2 with provision, #3, #4, #5 with provision (No GC), #6, move #7 to Senior Appy , move #8 to Senior Appy.
Darman says, "I still agree with Evan on his vote. . His vote is my vote"
Agrajag says to Paric, "I can go with that"
Paric nods.
Paric I think that agrees with what was voted on... I hate to have to revote on each item over..so unless there are objections... I'd like to move on to Senior Appy (amended).
Paric smiles, "Any comments on SA?"
Paric smiles, "BTW the Mentor and TP's are #7 and #8 respectively here..."
Evan says, "5 lessons seems a bit much with our curent teaching schedual."
Darman says, "I agree with Evan.  And what's the Advanced Track?"
Agrajag thinks 5 will help with it
Paric smiles and nods.  "Does everyone else agree with that assesment."
Evan says, "I'm still against outlne/teaching at Sr. Appy level.  That stuff should be completed by people just making J_man."
Paric smiles and looks at Jag."
Paric smiles and nods.
Evan says, "advanced is proapp6 darm"
Paric smiles, "Cera states that she feels that five lessons is fine and that the purpose of the appy is to learn."
Evan shrugs and can live w/ 5 lessons... provided we actually teach that much.  WOuld _DEF_ move outline/teaching o J-man level.
Darman says, "How do you view proapps?"
Agrajag ohs and thought Evan ment requirement number 5..
Agrajag on requirement number2, I think 3 would be a better number of classes
Paric smiles, "Okay..if you move the outline and teaching to jman...who will teach...there are three masters...by having the SA learn to teach an informal lesson...that will prepare them to teach immediately upon becoming jman."
Evan nods to AGra, "Same here."
Paric smiles, "Darman?  Number of classes?"
Agrajag will suggest the teaching compromise the Starcraft used.. teaching a class is part of the Jman orals.. so you go through the orals, then have to teach a class with a Master present before you can be promoted
Evan says, "Paric: J-men aren't born knowing how to teach.  Part of being a Journeyman is _learning_ how to teach.  They should be part of the Jman->SrJman reqs."
Darman says, "I'd drop the number of classes to 3"
Paric smiles and nods.  "Yes...  But the jman should be able to leave the hall with out so much as a lesson on teaching and be able to teach.  If they can't do that...then they will not be able to help outside of the craft hall..."
Paric smiles and nods, "Okay...it appears that we will lower the required classes to three."
Evan disagrees w/ you there Paric.  "They should leave being able to do the work.  Be posted under a master and learn how to tach.
Agrajag thought ICly Masters did most of the teaching with Jmen doing some of the introductory classes.. like a college having student TA's for 100 level courses
Paric shrugs and chuckles, "I guess we'll be disagreening on this..Yes...TAs taught most of the classes I had in college...they are no more than jman to me."
Evan nods to Agrajag, "I'd agree w/ that."
Paric smiles, "okay...I know that there is still discussion on the teaching requirement...is there any more on the other requirements."
Evan says, "Not on the othres."
Paric nods, "Okay...is there any objection to approving #1, 2 with provision (three classes), #6, #7, #8?
Agrajag says, "THe file I was given doesn't go beyond 6"
Evan says, "nope.""
Evan says, "7,8 are the 2 we shifted from appy->sr appy."
Paric smiles, "#7 and #8 are the mentor and tp."
Agrajag says, "Ok, no objections"
Paric smiles, "Darman?"
Darman says, "Hmmm"
Darman says, "I can't figure out how to read proapp6... So I don't know what advanced track is"
Paric smiles, "help proapp 6"
Evan says, "help proapp 6a, proapp 6b, proapp 6c"
Agrajag tickles Darman, "It's the big project
Paric nods, "Okay...Darman, is there any objection to approving #1, 2 with provision (three classes), #6, #7, #8?
Paric smiles, "Okay...any objections to the SA attending an OOC class on teaching, #3?"
Evan says, "attending?  only minor.  like auditing a graduate-level course... possible but not usually done."
Darman says, "I see.  say I'm good for it all.. I'm going to go with Evan's opinion on #3"
Agrajag thwaps Darman, "Actually vote for yourself"
Paric smiles, "I think it would help us a little in preparing the people to be ready to teach a class IC as Jman.  The point is that the people that are becoming jman do not know how to teach any lessons...perhaps they are afraid, shy, what have you...but an OOC class will allow them to practice teaching...before they have to.  As Jman...you are almost expected to know everything...should be that way, but that is the case..."
Agrajag abstains from this vote
Evan nods to Paric, "Sure.  But they shouldn't ber required to teach as soon as they become J-men."
Evan nods to Paric, "Sure.  But they shouldn't ber required to teach as soon as they become J-men."
Paricchuckles.
Paric laughs, even.
Evan sorries, "Din't mean to do that."
Darman nods.  "I will vote for myself.  An informal ooc class teaching will work.  "
Paric smiles, "I think having the SA learn to teach a class OOC, would be appropriate.  The IC stuff can wait until jman.  This way when they become jman, they will have built up confidence in teaching."
Evan says, "You're still assuming that as soon as they make J-man they teach. *bzzt*"
Krahen blinks in from ::between::!
Krahen suddenly disappears ::between::!
Paric smiles, "No... I don't.  To be IC ...true..they may not be teaching...but...for OOC reasons...it makes since to build confidence in those that don't have the experience or ability to teach prior to attaining the level of jman."
Evan notes that people don't studdenly stoplearning when they get a doulbe loop.
Evan says, "Learning to teach can be required in the 1st month of being a J-man if you want... I just don't think it should be as appy-level."
emote smiles and nods, "True...but you are still thinking about the IC not the OOC."
Paric smiles and nods, "True...but you are still thinking about the IC not the OOC."
Cera smiles and pokes up for a moment between cooking and such, "Uhm...hello the reason this started was cause no one taught classes Evan. Until recently Darman hadn't done much..rand a couple and well Bryon none at all and there recent past. The main and big big complaint was that 'no one' was available to teach!
Evan shakes his head, "OOCly it's just as important."
Cera says, "bryon did teach one to clarify my statement."
Agrajag thinks getting them familiar with teaching before they become jmen will hopefully lead to more jmen/masters teaching classes
Evan nods to Cera, "Sure.  But I still don't agree that all journeyman can or _should_ teach.
Cera says, "I will and what is annoying to me..there are 'three' masters atm. rest jman...who do you think is going to do all the classes for the jman and apprentices alike?"
Darman says, "I agree with Evan.  Some Journeymen definitely should NOT teach"
Cera says, "No one said that they should but then again...they 'shouldn't' be promoted"
Darman says, "I don't follow you, Cera"
Agrajag says, "Jmen != teacher"
Evan says, "NOD!!!!!!S to AGrajag."
Cera says, "thank you Jag...if they can't teach or don't know how...they shouldn't be jman since that is part of it!"
Evan says, "Journeyman is a level that _everyone_ should be able to attain."
Evan says, "Master==Teacher."
Evan says, "Whether or not they can teach, everyone should be able to make Journeyman."
Cera says, "Well if master equals teacher...then why aren't all the masters teaching?"
Evan says, "Because we're lazy slobs who aren't doing what we should."
Agrajag thinks a lot of people on this MOO have gotten confused by this point due to having a small number of people, but being a jman means you can go out and do the work.. being a Master means you can teach and/or help run the Craft
Evan says, "Nor is that to say that Journeyman can't teach.  They can, and many of them should.   Just not all of them."
Cera laughs
Evan nods to AGra.
Paric laughs. "I may be a slob...but I'm not lazy...well..not really."
Evan oh?s to Paric, "I won't make the obvious joke about you & cera." :P
Evan says, "I have no problem w/ Sr. Journeymen == teachers."
Agrajag snickers
Cera says, "hell I don't care if we keep the same requirements we have the object in the end is... ...and people doing classes...I doln't want to be the entire 'crafts' mentor!"
Darman says, "Agree with Evan again.  Sr. Journeymen and up should be teachers.  Jmen Jrs should be learning to teach"
Evan says, "Part of my point is No matter _HOW_ you feel about people.  EVERY SINGLE LAST APPRENTICE should be able to make Journeymen."
Agrajag says, "Ok, back to business.. is there any rank that we should require those people to teach?"
Evan says, "Not all of them should teach.  Being a journeyman is all about _learning_ how to teach."
Evan says, "As well as improving one's skills."
Agrajag says, "And about practicing the Craft"
Evan beers AGra.
Cera laughs, "Yes...and okay..then how in the hell do we get it so it ain't just one person doing it?"
Evan says, "Require Sr. J-men to teach.  Make part of being a J-man tyring to learn how to do so."
Evan says, "Require Masters to teach as well."
Darman says, "Hey, Ev, let's keep this conversation Nonalcoholic"
Evan says, "I don't imbibe Darm."
Darman says, "But you beered Jag.  "
Cera says, "well hell I teach already...ask darman...ask bryon ask friggin anyone :)"
Agrajag starts mixing klah and jack daniels, then passes it around :P
Evan says, "As regular J-man every class you teach should be in conjunction with or supervised by a master.  Well, atleast the firs few."
Evan nods to Cera, "I don't think anyone's doubting that?
Agrajag also notes that teaching doesn't have to be as formal as most people think.  A simple RP session with an appy where you show them something about the forge or furnace is teaching
Paric nods.
Evan nodles to AGrajag, "Or going around helping them with projects.
Cera says, "Well so lets change it so we all gotta do something here...ick...we have more activity fighting and I think people wanna join the craft to see the argument"
Paric chuckles.
Evan says, "I think it's simple.  Move all class outlines/teaching to the req.s for Jman -> Sr. Jman."
Evan laughs to Cera, "Heh."
Agrajag says, "We do top 'crowds' :)"
Agrajag makes a decision.. in 9 min I'm going to be in bed
Paric nods.
Evan says, "My list only goes up through Sr appy -> Jman in any case?"
Paric smiles, "I have no problem with the OOC class being required in the SA...and the IC outline/OOC outline/and IC class being required in the jman."
emote smiles, "That hasn't been worked on yet..."
Paric smiles, "That hasn't been worked on yet..."
Evan hrm"s to paric.  "OOC class on teaching?  I"d bump that one up too."
Paric phbbbts.
Paricchuckles, "Cera is laughing her ass off over here...."
emote shakes his head and laughs, "I think she is going to have an asthma attack."
Paric shakes his head and laughs, "I think she is going to have an asthma attack."
Agrajag wonders what she's laughing at
Paric grins, "I phbbt'd the computer monitor."
Paric grins, "I phbbt'd the computer monitor."
Evan wonders too?
Cera says, "paric micky mouse blow at the screen at you all"
Paric shakes his head, "Geez....will you stop the laughing Cera."
Darman says, "Will you two stop poking fun at each other when you can just yell up the stairs or something?"
Cera says, "*laughs* so damn hard sooo sorry...Paric blew raspberries at ths scrreen...like you would see see it...I can't stop laughing"
Paric chuckles.  "Anyway,... I think the OOC class on how to teach would be very helpful to SA before they become jman....she's still laughing...ugh."
Paric shakes his head and regrets ever doing a bronx cheer in front of Cera.  "Never again.."
Evan wonders wh y Paric?
Darman shrugs.  "Women, Paric.  That's all you can say"
Paric chuckles, "You'd have to be here Evan."
Evan says, "nono... "Why the class as Sr appy?""
Darman says, "So they can develop a teaching style.  I remember trying to teach without a class such as the one described and well, I refuse to show the log to anyone."
Evan nods to Darman, 'You'd still have the class before you teach.  Just as a J-man not an appy.\
Cera smiles, "Darman did it help? remember..."
Cera says, "Evan by starting to teach how to teach early doesn't mean they are ready..it is a step in the right direction"
Agrajag arghs.. its been 10 min.. *goes to bed*
Cera says, "It takse some people a long time to do it...I had help...and I helped others....the same way it was just offering someone a hand in something that not all of us can do with a blink of an eye..."
Evan nods, "But we've already established that as basic journeymen they'll be learning to teach.  Just put it there with everything else.
Agrajag has disconnected.
Agrajag falls asleep.
Evan nods to Cera, "So you'll just take longer before you go to sr jman.
Cera says, "nah..i was looking so people could enjoy there time and learn in an effective manner ...we all know how we feel just a missin darman's view :P"
The housekeeper arrives to cart Agrajag off to bed.
Cera says, "okay since half of us in idle heaven here...we move ooc teaching class to jman and if in future people decide otherwise it will or can be changed back to snr appy"
Evan says, "is watching. :>"
Evan nods to Cera, "That's ok w/ me."
Cera snug Evan
Evan is just grading assignments while waiting for ppl to say something.
Cera says, "is staring at the screen waiting for same :P"
Cera says, "mentor? snry appy?"
Cera says, "ahh never mind..."
Paric smiles, "Okay...any problem with it being required that the mentor must approve the appy to take orals?
Cera says, "not approve I would say but suggest to take that they are ready"
Evan hrrms, "No problems w/ that, but I'm ok if it goes as well>"
Darman says, "Definitely supportive of that"
Cera says, "great that was easy and fast "
Cera says, "then we covered the whole dang thing finally...on that"
Paric nods, "Okay...if there is no objection, an apprentice must have approval of his mentor before he can take orals.
Darman says, "Absolutely.  It's a reflection upon the mentor whether or not the apprentice passes so the mentor should have a say"
Cera says, "works fine"
Paric smiles, "If noone objects, I think we can discuss the rest of the stuff on another date."
Cera says, "that works except on thing that has to be done big time...miners"
Evan nods, "lots happened.  I suggest that someone post a summary as well as a link to the log?
Paric smiles, "I'll work on it tonight...or at least attempt too..."
Paric grins, "With Cera's help!"
Evan says, "doesn't have to be tonight.  24 hours seems long enough..."
Paric laughs, "Well...then you'll be waiting till Saturday..heheh."
Paric smiles, "Okay...we'll talk about this other stuff on another day.  And the next time we do this...I suggest we keep the meeting short...less than two hours..."
Paric chuckles.
Cera nods
Evan chuckles and nods to Paric, "Yep."